Friday, April 04, 2008
Poker, Dave, and "All In Etiquette"
On Thursday we had a poker game at the office; haven't done that in a while. One of the last hands was very interesting, so I'm going to blog about it. First, who cares about this topic? That's what I thought. But then who's reading? That's what I thought. Anyway, I want to write about it because it interests me so.
So, there were 5 of us, but one was out, so there were 4 of us left. Rami was the dealer, then came my uncle, then Dave (the poker expert), and me. The blinds were 500-1000; Rami had about 10,000 chips, My uncle about 3,500, Dave about 16,000, and me about 7,000. So my uncle was small blind for 500, Dave was big blind for 1000, and I was first to act.
I look down at A-6 suited. It's a nice hand, might be worth raising, but nah, it's still risky, so I call. Rami folds. My uncle (who's shortstacked) calls, and Dave checks.
Flop comes out 10-A-8. I flopped top pair, so I plan to slow play it. My uncle checks, Dave raises 1000. I can't carry out my plan, so I call, and my uncle calls. Suit doesn't matter anymore...
Turn comes out another 8, so we have 10-A-8-8. My uncle goes all-in for 1500 more, Dave calls, and I call.
River comes out another 8, so we have 10-A-8-8-8. Dave thinks for a while, and then puts me all-in. First, let me tell you something about Dave and "All-in Etiquette".
All-in Etiquette, in a tournament setting, refers to how players should play when another player is all-in. In most cases, the other players should "check-it-down" so that there is a better chance to kick out the all-in player. Remember, in tournaments, the object is to kick the other players out so you're the last man standing, or at least in 2nd place to get 2nd-place money. So the best result after someone goes all-in is that that person is eliminated, so that there's less players and you're that much closer to your goal of 'last man standing'.
For example, consider this: The cards on the table are 3-4-5-6-8. Joe is already all in, and he's holding K-K. Dave is holding Q-Q, and Bao is holding A-A. On the river, Dave raises with his Q-Q. Bao, he's holding A-A, which is the best hand at the table, but he's scared that Dave might be holding a 2 or a 7, making a straight, or maybe he already has a three of a kind. Bao folds.
If Bao DIDN'T fold, Joe would've been eliminated, and Bao would win the main pot and the side pot (if there is one). But in the above situation, Bao did fold, and Joe beats Dave. Dave will get the side pot (if there was one), but Joe would still be in the tournament, which overall is a bad thing for everyone (except Joe, haha). Let's call this situation the "Bad Move".
It's even more ridiculous if there wasn't a side pot. If there wasn't a sidepot, Dave would've just raised me out of the hand, and then Joe would win all the money in the pot, which makes no sense for the tournament. Sometimes, if the sidepot is huge enough, it maaay be worth it to knock out the contender, but that's rare.
There are some cases when it's worth it to raise. Sometimes if the side pot is huge enough (so mainpot may have 1000 chips, but side pot is 8000 chips), then it's worth it to raise and knock out the contender. Another case is when you have the absolute best hand, in which case the "insurance" to knock out the other guy isn't needed, so you may raise and hope the other guy calls and you get more money.
Back to Dave; Dave is a true believer in "All-in Etiquette", and in most cases he would "check-it-down" so to knock the other player out.
Back to the hand: The main pot is 10,500 in chips, the side pot is 0. The board is 10-A-8-8-8, and Dave raises me all-in. I'm holding an ace, so my hand is 8-8-8-A-A, Full house Eight-full-of-Aces. Dave follows All-in-Etiquette, most of the time, so it's extremely rare for him to have a bad hand, so chances are he's at least tied with me. The hands that he could have are (although I haven't thought of all of these at the time):
8-8-8-A-A (If he's holding an Ace)
10-10-10-8-8 (if he's holding pocket 10's)
A-A-A-8-8 (if he's holding pocket Aces)
8-8-8-8-A (if he's holding an 8)
Back to "Bad Move". That's when A is all-in and has the 2nd best hand, B is the one who bets with the worst hand, and C is the one with the best hand that will fold. Note that C must have the best-hand out of all 3, but not the best hand of the game (in this case, 8-8-8-8-A, because he won't fold that). So... what are the chances that Dave made a "Bad Move" (defined above) ?
Dave would have had to have 8-8-8-A-A, My uncle 10-10-10-8-8, and myself A-A-A-8-8. That's the only situation in which case Dave would have had made a "Bad Move", unless Dave really made a bad move and his hand was worse than 8-8-8-A-A... But Dave wouldn't make such a "Bad Move" on purpose.
So I stick him with at least the same hand as me, 8-8-8-A-A. What does this mean?
If he had the same hand as me, and my uncle has the same hand, then if I called, we would split it 3-ways; well, I would get my money back from the side pot, and the main pot would've been split 3 ways. If I folded, then Dave would've been a jerk, and my uncle and dave would've split the 10,500 chips.
So I stuck him with AT LEAST as good of a hand as mine. For some reason, I put him on having an 8. When that 3rd 8 came out, the chances were reallly low, but for some reason him having an 8 would make a lot of sense. It is the main reason for him to raise on the river.
So I was stuck between him being a jerk, or him having the best hand possible. In the end, after discussing all the possibilities, I called.
My uncle had an ace, so he had 8-8-8-A-A. I had an ace, so I had 8-8-8-A-A. And as I suspected, Dave turned up a suited K-8, thus giving him Four 8's with an ace. Dave wins the whole pot, and now it's a 10,000 chipped Rami against a 26,500 chipped Dave.
So... did I make the right call? Hmm... I made the right call pre-flop, on the flop, and on the turn. I had 3500 in the main pot and Dave was asking me to put in another 3500. I was so sure that he would have an eight, but the chances are quite unlikely. But... were the signs there? So the question is, did I have enough information to put him on the fourth 8, and was it the right call?
Well, it would've been the laydown of the century if I did fold, and it would've been epic. I don't know... it seemed like the right call to make... although deep inside I knew that I should've folded and tried to live on with my remaining 3500 chips. Then again, after that, I would have 3500 chips, against a 10,000 chipper and a 23,500 chipper... so in a way, that full-house was too tempting to put down.
And that's that. Boy, I miss poker... glad I played yesterday. Can't wait to play again!
Comments:
Post a Comment
So, there were 5 of us, but one was out, so there were 4 of us left. Rami was the dealer, then came my uncle, then Dave (the poker expert), and me. The blinds were 500-1000; Rami had about 10,000 chips, My uncle about 3,500, Dave about 16,000, and me about 7,000. So my uncle was small blind for 500, Dave was big blind for 1000, and I was first to act.
I look down at A-6 suited. It's a nice hand, might be worth raising, but nah, it's still risky, so I call. Rami folds. My uncle (who's shortstacked) calls, and Dave checks.
Flop comes out 10-A-8. I flopped top pair, so I plan to slow play it. My uncle checks, Dave raises 1000. I can't carry out my plan, so I call, and my uncle calls. Suit doesn't matter anymore...
Turn comes out another 8, so we have 10-A-8-8. My uncle goes all-in for 1500 more, Dave calls, and I call.
River comes out another 8, so we have 10-A-8-8-8. Dave thinks for a while, and then puts me all-in. First, let me tell you something about Dave and "All-in Etiquette".
All-in Etiquette, in a tournament setting, refers to how players should play when another player is all-in. In most cases, the other players should "check-it-down" so that there is a better chance to kick out the all-in player. Remember, in tournaments, the object is to kick the other players out so you're the last man standing, or at least in 2nd place to get 2nd-place money. So the best result after someone goes all-in is that that person is eliminated, so that there's less players and you're that much closer to your goal of 'last man standing'.
For example, consider this: The cards on the table are 3-4-5-6-8. Joe is already all in, and he's holding K-K. Dave is holding Q-Q, and Bao is holding A-A. On the river, Dave raises with his Q-Q. Bao, he's holding A-A, which is the best hand at the table, but he's scared that Dave might be holding a 2 or a 7, making a straight, or maybe he already has a three of a kind. Bao folds.
If Bao DIDN'T fold, Joe would've been eliminated, and Bao would win the main pot and the side pot (if there is one). But in the above situation, Bao did fold, and Joe beats Dave. Dave will get the side pot (if there was one), but Joe would still be in the tournament, which overall is a bad thing for everyone (except Joe, haha). Let's call this situation the "Bad Move".
It's even more ridiculous if there wasn't a side pot. If there wasn't a sidepot, Dave would've just raised me out of the hand, and then Joe would win all the money in the pot, which makes no sense for the tournament. Sometimes, if the sidepot is huge enough, it maaay be worth it to knock out the contender, but that's rare.
There are some cases when it's worth it to raise. Sometimes if the side pot is huge enough (so mainpot may have 1000 chips, but side pot is 8000 chips), then it's worth it to raise and knock out the contender. Another case is when you have the absolute best hand, in which case the "insurance" to knock out the other guy isn't needed, so you may raise and hope the other guy calls and you get more money.
Back to Dave; Dave is a true believer in "All-in Etiquette", and in most cases he would "check-it-down" so to knock the other player out.
Back to the hand: The main pot is 10,500 in chips, the side pot is 0. The board is 10-A-8-8-8, and Dave raises me all-in. I'm holding an ace, so my hand is 8-8-8-A-A, Full house Eight-full-of-Aces. Dave follows All-in-Etiquette, most of the time, so it's extremely rare for him to have a bad hand, so chances are he's at least tied with me. The hands that he could have are (although I haven't thought of all of these at the time):
8-8-8-A-A (If he's holding an Ace)
10-10-10-8-8 (if he's holding pocket 10's)
A-A-A-8-8 (if he's holding pocket Aces)
8-8-8-8-A (if he's holding an 8)
Back to "Bad Move". That's when A is all-in and has the 2nd best hand, B is the one who bets with the worst hand, and C is the one with the best hand that will fold. Note that C must have the best-hand out of all 3, but not the best hand of the game (in this case, 8-8-8-8-A, because he won't fold that). So... what are the chances that Dave made a "Bad Move" (defined above) ?
Dave would have had to have 8-8-8-A-A, My uncle 10-10-10-8-8, and myself A-A-A-8-8. That's the only situation in which case Dave would have had made a "Bad Move", unless Dave really made a bad move and his hand was worse than 8-8-8-A-A... But Dave wouldn't make such a "Bad Move" on purpose.
So I stick him with at least the same hand as me, 8-8-8-A-A. What does this mean?
If he had the same hand as me, and my uncle has the same hand, then if I called, we would split it 3-ways; well, I would get my money back from the side pot, and the main pot would've been split 3 ways. If I folded, then Dave would've been a jerk, and my uncle and dave would've split the 10,500 chips.
So I stuck him with AT LEAST as good of a hand as mine. For some reason, I put him on having an 8. When that 3rd 8 came out, the chances were reallly low, but for some reason him having an 8 would make a lot of sense. It is the main reason for him to raise on the river.
So I was stuck between him being a jerk, or him having the best hand possible. In the end, after discussing all the possibilities, I called.
My uncle had an ace, so he had 8-8-8-A-A. I had an ace, so I had 8-8-8-A-A. And as I suspected, Dave turned up a suited K-8, thus giving him Four 8's with an ace. Dave wins the whole pot, and now it's a 10,000 chipped Rami against a 26,500 chipped Dave.
So... did I make the right call? Hmm... I made the right call pre-flop, on the flop, and on the turn. I had 3500 in the main pot and Dave was asking me to put in another 3500. I was so sure that he would have an eight, but the chances are quite unlikely. But... were the signs there? So the question is, did I have enough information to put him on the fourth 8, and was it the right call?
Well, it would've been the laydown of the century if I did fold, and it would've been epic. I don't know... it seemed like the right call to make... although deep inside I knew that I should've folded and tried to live on with my remaining 3500 chips. Then again, after that, I would have 3500 chips, against a 10,000 chipper and a 23,500 chipper... so in a way, that full-house was too tempting to put down.
And that's that. Boy, I miss poker... glad I played yesterday. Can't wait to play again!